This Tuesday April 19 2011 will mark the 16th anniversary of the bombing of the Alfred P murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City it was while we American nation was still reeling from that terrible national tragedy that one family in that nation experienced its own private tragedy the deaths of one of its own the details of the death of Kenneth trend adieu can be found widely online and I would suggest Kenneth trenni do calm as a starting point for that research and from a link from Kenneth trenni do calm we have a mother Jones story from 2007 in search of John Doe number two the story the feds never told about the Oklahoma City bombing quote Kenny trying to do was driving a 1986 Chevy pickup when he was pulled over at the Mexican border on his way home to San Diego on June 10th 1995 he was dark-haired 5 feet 8 inches and well muscled a former athlete who had picked up construction work after he quit robbing banks his left forearm Bora Dragon Tattoo highway patrol officers ran his license and found that it had been suspended and that he was wanted for parole violations after two months in jail in San Diego Trinity was shipped on August 18th to a prison in Oklahoma City for a hearing on the parole violations the move placed Kenny in close proximity to the most famous federal prisoner in America in one way or another it also sealed his fate four months earlier another car had been stopped by a state trooper some 80 miles north of Oklahoma City it was 10:20 a.m. on April 19th 1995 and much of the country was still waking up to the enormity of what had happened earlier that morning when an explosive Laden Ryder truck gutted the Alfred P murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City killing 168 people the driver of the 1977 Mercury Marquis was arrested for carrying a concealed weapon and driving without tags he gave his name as Timothy McVeigh two days later McVeigh was identified as the John Doe number one wanted in the bombing and fellow anti-government extremists Terry Nichols turned himself in to police they were indicted on August 10th and federal authorities said they had their men but there were many who didn't buy the tigey closure a sprawling Great Plains town known for its tornadoes Oklahoma City was already the center of a swirl of theories about the crime all of them insisting that the two men could not have acted alone some refused to give up on the idea of Middle Eastern terrorists speculating about a plot headed by Saddam Hussein others suspected an inside job by the feds some simply stuck to the far more plausible conviction that there were co-conspirators not yet apprehended after all immediately following the bombing law enforcement had been searching furiously for a man who numerous sources said they saw with McVeigh and who by some accounts was seen walking away from the Ryder truck the characters whose police composite sketch became known around the world as John Doe number two according to the police description this man was about five feet nine muscular and dark-haired by some accounts he drove an older model pickup truck and had a dragon tattooed on his left forearm Kenny's brother Jesse trying to do knew nothing about the resemblance between his brother and the nation's most wanted man but he now believes it sparked the events that would launch him on a 12-year investigation of a prison mystery and a massive government stonewalling effort in the process he would discover documents showing that even as the Justice Department was working to convict what it insisted were only two conspirators its agents were actively investigating a wider plot a plot whose possible ramifications they concealed for defense lawyers and from a public that at a delicate moment in an election year they were anxious to reassure and quote well I will leave the readers to go to motherjones.com and follow the link from the Corbett report documentation section of today's podcast episode and read through that for yourself and you can find some of the other details that that report includes about the death of Kenneth trying to do and the work of his brother Salt Lake City based attorney Jesse trying to do in trying to uncover what really happened in that death but I'll as I say I'll leave you to do that for yourself on your own and I think you will find that Mother Jones of course does not go very far in trying to get to the real bottom of this mystery but at least that sets the stage for who can it's trying to do is and the significance of the story and its possible relation to the Oklahoma City bombing and it's there that we will start really exploring this issue this really incredibly unresolved issue in the Oklahoma City investigation that has been like an open sore on the American government and the public who has been led along to believe that these two conspirators Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh represent the be-all and end-all of the Oklahoma City bombing for the past 16 years as the documents uncovered by Jesse trying to do show that is very much not the case there was a lot more going on here then the public could ever imagine if they were going only by official government pronouncements on the matter and it all starts with the death of Kenneth trying to do which was labeled a suicide now if you go to tenet Rena do calm you can take a look at the pictures of the corpse for yourself and I must warn listeners out there that it is extremely graphic but it does show beyond shadow of a doubt that there was torture and murder in the case of kittens trying to do and it was not a suicide and there are but there is much more documentation and evidence to go along with that so in order to start exploring this issue let's take a listen to an excerpt from an interview that I conducted earlier this week with Jesse trying to do Ken eternities brother Jesse trying to do as I've said is a Salt Lake City based attorney a former law professor and someone who had absolutely no inkling of an understanding that his brother's death was in any way related to the Oklahoma City bombing back when all of this began in 1995 but as many listeners out there may know as I have referenced it several times on the podcast the story of Kenneth trying to do and now his brother Jesse trying to do is an incredible one that really goes to the very heart of what the government is attempting to cover up in the Oklahoma City bombing and for that reason although it's a very familiar refrain on this podcast that I urge listeners to go and listen to the interview in its entirety I would once again really wholeheartedly encourage people to listen to this interview which in some ways may be one of the most important that I've ever conducted because the information that Jesse trying to do has managed to bring to light because of his Freedom of Information Act requests and his tireless crusade to bring more information about the death of his brother to the eye of the public is so valuable it's so important that I can't really think of many more subjects that would be more important for a podcast like this one to cover so without talking about it too much let's get straight into that excerpt from the interview where Jesse talks about his brother and his brother's death well Jesse trying to do my longtime listeners will no doubt be somewhat familiar with the story of your brother and how it relates to the Okies OKC bombing and it's a story that I have referenced numerous times before on my podcast and in my videos and that story generally begins with your brother's deaths but before we get to that part of the story I would like to take a moment to hear a bit about your brother and your relationship with him because I think it's easy to forget that we are talking about a real human being here who really didn't lose his life for what it now appears was a case of mistaken identity so can you flesh that out for us and tell us a little bit about your brother and the kind of person that he was well we grew up in a southern Appalachian coal camp and had the good fortune to be able to migrate to California in the early 1960s Kenny was a very bright man very popular he unfortunately at that time is when the drug problems were starting to come onto the American scene and he got into drug use he enlisted in the army and like so many people during the Vietnam War especially young men came back as heroin addicts and he ain't to support his habit he robbed a bank he was caught he confessed and pled guilty and went it is his time in jail and he served his time he married had a little boy in his son was only two months old when he was murdered but my brother was a you know we never condoned his bank robbery or anything anything like that but he was a good person he struggled with his addictions and he overcame his addiction and as I that well as I understand when he was picked up and taken to the Oklahoma City Federal correction Center I I understand that you were in touch with him even the day before that he was actually murdered yes he was picked up in San Diego and the he when he was released from prison he had a probation officer that didn't approve of drinking and my brother worked construction and working construction will you even if you don't work construction people drank beer and his probation officer put a no beer drinking condition on his parole and my brother said and I thought that we went all through the administrative appeals on that and lost my brother basically said to his probation officer says I'm going to drink beer you know where I live if you think that's enough to send me back to prison come and get me of course they didn't and he was out from about 1987 until 1995 after the Oklahoma City bombing and suddenly he is he has picked up allegedly for a parole violation and sent to Oklahoma City for what we were told would be a probe violation hearing he arrived there on a Friday night I spoke with him Saturday PMON he was supposed to call back Sunday and this was he lived on Friday the 18th of August 1995 I spoke to him on the 19th of August the Saturday for about 20 minutes talking about his parole hearing and how that you know was there was no way they were going to send him back to jail for drinking beer and on Sunday he was supposed to call me back and he didn't and on Monday morning my mother received a call this was August 21st 1995 from the warden at the federal transfer center in Oklahoma City saying my brother had committed suicide and asking permission to have his body cremated and of course she refused my mother refused that request it took about a week of fighting with the federal government to have his body released we found out later that during that time period the federal government had made two attempts to have his body cremated when he arrived home he was covered in makeup and my mother his wife and my sister they moved the makeup I was on my way to Southern California in Orange County where they had sent the body warm his life and my family still live when I arrived he had been beaten head-to-toe his skull was split in three places his throat had been cut even the soles of his feet had been beaten and the government said it was a suicidal hanging and what we never had was a motive for his death people would say to you why would the federal government torture and he was tortured and murdered your brother and we had no explanation for that another thing about the case that was always unexplainable was the fact that so much evidence disappeared my brother was supposedly found with blood-stained clothing but when his body was turned over to the medical examiner two hours later his clothes are gone he's wearing nothing but boxer shorts the video camera supposedly that would monitor access to my brother malfunctioned the logbooks that would have shown who came and went from the institution with access to my brother either disappeared or the pages on the date my brother who's Aaron Bates my brother were there word on out the crime-scene photographs disappear the medical examiner is not allowed access to the death scene when you find the is allowed access to the death scene four months later it had been painted and cleaned up and this is all done by the FBI and the Department of Justice and we could never understand why this kind of resistance was coming from the government before before we move on so just to be clear he was picked up for allegedly a parole violation in San Diego and then he was transferred to Oklahoma City that's a considerable distance is that I mean how unusual is that in itself I don't practice criminal although but I laugh still I think some people say should crime I'm a lawyer but I now know at the time it didn't seem unusual because we I knew nothing about criminal all I now know that it should not have happened the crime he committed was in Southern California the robbery his probation officer was in Southern California the judge who sentenced him was in Southern California he should have been brought back in front of the judge who had sentenced him and they would had a hearing on whether or not he had violated his parole he shouldn't have been sent to Oklahoma and there was no way that Oklahoma could have handled the judge in Oklahoma could have handled that parole revocation hearing so it should have happened but at the time it did not seem there was nothing in struck me as unusual because I just simply didn't know the procedure in the criminal justice system and but what I did learn later and it came about over the course of years was about six months after my was December of 1995 or January of 1995 I received an anonymous phone call and this was back before we have telephones of a show you who's calling and everything else and computers were very primitive then and cell phones were the size of bricks almost like if you recall in the mid 1990s but I received a phone call from this person who said I want you to know that your brother was murdered by the FBI it was a case of mistaken identity he kept the profile of a group of people who were robbing banks to get money to attack the federal government sort of a militia movement type operation and I of course and what I remember the words I said it was an interrogation that went wrong and I just sort of dismissed it as a crank call from from and I got a lot of those at the time trying to find out what happened when brother and then about June or July in 1996 I see an article in Los Angeles Times talking about a man named Richard Lee Guthrie who had been found hanging in his cell in federal custody and it was the day before Guthrie had said that he was going to give an interview to the los angeles time that would blow the lid off the Oklahoma City bombing and just simply said that Guthrie blown to a group of bank robbers and I didn't focus much on Guffey there was no photograph of Guthrie either and then shortly before his death I received a message from Tim McVeigh who told me he said when I saw your brother's picture and heard what happened to him I want you to know that in my opinion he was murdered by the FBI because they mistook him for Richard Reid Guthrie and I looked at a photograph of Guthrie and Decker he looked very similar to my brother but what really brought all the pieces together was a phone call from a reporter named JD cash who had followed the Oklahoma City bombing from the moment it happened he was a reporter in eastern Oklahoma he had family and friends killed in the bombing and it was in 2003 on Billy for 2004 when I received a call from JD and he said you got a minute I'd like to talk to you about your brother and I said sure and what JD said was described your brother and I said well you know he was in Jason health problems and I said he's about 5 foot 8 5 9 JD see what was his build by cuz he was very powerfully built man complexion I said he was dark complected a mustache yes had a mustache where was he when he was kicked out but I feel if he's coming back across the border from Mexico he been down to visit some friends down there and his wife's family she's Mexican American citizen the United States restore her family in Baja California and daddy said what was he driving and I said a mid-1980s 1986 chevrolet pickup truck and jenny said did he have any tattoos and I said yes and Eddie said what kind I said he had a dragon tattoo and Jesse JD said weird I said on his left forearm and JB said oh shit he said are you better slow down I said I'm setting down and he said let me tell you this he said the largest manhunt in American history was for John Doe – it was occurring at the time your brother was arrested and JD said this is the description of John Doe – quite male powerful upper body build five foot eight 5 foot 9 dark complected believed to be in Canada or Mexico driving mid-1980s Chevrolet pickup truck dragon tattoo left forearm and that's when it all came together could they had mistaken my brother for someone else and that someone else was Richard Lee Guthrie who was a perfect match I found out later for my brother down to the dragon tattoo on the catskill arm as I said got three ended up hanging supposedly suicide in this cell while in the cuffs of the FBI an eyewitness to my brother's murder an inmate named old and Gilda's Baker a month before we going through this trial Baker supposedly hangs himself in his cell fall under FBI custody again another suicide and so it was that Kenneth Michael trying to do was slain in the place of Richard Lee Guthrie allegedly or supposedly one of the John Doe number twos who may have been one of the accomplices of Timothy McVeigh and or involved in some way or other with various intelligence agencies as an informant and the long and winding story of John Doe number two has been told many times in many places but of course there is the story of multiple eyewitnesses who saw Timothy McVeigh both on the day of the bombing and in the days be prior to the bombing when he was renting the truck and in other locations with other accomplices plural so there there is some question about John Doe number two and has been ever since the FBI released a composite sketch of John Doe number two in the days after the bombing and then proceeded to scrub him from the history books and pretend that he never existed and that of course did not work so well and it is now a well documented mystery of the OKC bombing that even mainstream outlets like salon will pick up and I'll include a link to the mystery of John Doe number two from salon.com from 2001 so I will leave you to explore that on your own but I did have the chance to pose this question about Richard Lee Guthrie and his perhaps role as John Doe number two in the bombing itself to an expert on the OKC bombing none other than Holland vend a new Inhofe of the free mind report the free mind report is a spin-off of sorts of Radio Free Oklahoma and listeners to the interviews RSS feed of corbettreport.com will remember from last year that I was a guest on that program recently I had the chance to be a guest on the new free mind report and I just had all invented new and half on the Corbett report as a guest to talk about the OKC bombing of course coming up to the 16th anniversary and hole invented new Inhofe and the members of weird change Oklahoma are going to be doing a street action on April 19th to raise awareness about the issues related to the Oklahoma City bombing the truth movement nature of what's what has been uncovered over the last 16 years and been systematically suppressed but at any rate let's take a listen to an excerpt from that conversation where we talk about Richard Lee Guthrie's role in the bombing itself and the information that has been suppressed about that role and it's a story that tracks back through Elohim City the white supremacist compound that evidently was being run infested with FBI be ATF and SPLC informants and SPLC might be better known to some of my listeners as the Southern Poverty Law Center and that leads back through the intelligence agencies through a German named andreas Strasse Maher it's an interesting story so let's turn to Holland venden off on John Doe number two and Richard Lee Guthrie well we think that there were several people involved on the ground that day there were several John Doe number twos and I do think that Richard Lee Guthrie was one of them we've uncovered evidence lately through access to the Defense archives of Tim McVeigh reading FBI reports that Richard Lee Guthrie may have met several people close to McVeigh and there is a very strong evidence that they did work together on at least one bank robbery and the fact that another John Doe number two Michael bersia he was a racist who lived out of Elohim Elohim City a neo-nazi compound in eastern Oklahoma Michael bhashya is a is a look-alike is a is a just a knock out resemblance to the John Doe number two sketches his alibi for that day is sketchy he was involved with Andy Strauss Meyer was also involved with the bombing semi he also knew Richard Lee Guthrie and Michael Brashear had worked with Guthrie on at least one bank robbery for which he served prison time so we had this this whole methodology these other people involved and for some reason the feds do not want to go there one reason is many of these people were federal informants like Andy Strauss Meyer a known federal informant he had he was a West German intelligence agent he came to the United States at the behest of German intelligence to investigate the sources of neo-nazi literature they were emanating from the United States that were going into Germany of course to produce or possess Nazi literature in Germany is a crime to this day so they were going after the source most of which lies in the United States and some of which was coming out of Elohim city in Oklahoma Andy Strauss Meyer went there he was also working with federal law enforcement agencies on other projects and he was likely involved with the Oklahoma City bombing in fact we know he was because another informant a Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms informant Carroll has got on the record saying that they were talking about bombing the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City she took Andy Stradivari and others to the Murrah Building for scouting missions she told her handlers all of this before the bombing all of this was credible before the bombing when she went public after the bombing saying that she had warned him suddenly she lost she lost her credibility and feds try to actually try to throw her in jail but thankfully she's able to afford a good lawyer who could get out of the frivolous charges that's right and Carroll house startling story comes from a sealed the court transcript that Jessie trying to do was leaked and he has made that available and that is now actually available on that interview page that I just conducted with him then available for download so I certainly hope people will download that and take a look at it because again that's extremely important but going back for a moment to the issue of Richard Lee Guthrie obviously this is speculative but why then would do you think they would want to to get rid of Richard Lee Guthrie and ended up doing so with Kenna Trinity well virtually Guthrie later ended up dead himself he was eventually captured on beg Roberts bank robbery charges and and he was transferred to a federal prison actually to to a jail and he was found dead they said it was suicide but it was very strange because he had already he was getting ready to testify in a court case which may have leaked some evidence about the Oklahoma City bombing and he was getting ready to give an interview and write a book which he said in his words would blow the lid off the Oklahoma City bombing so perhaps he was going to go public it's largely speculation we suspect that he may have been an informer to some degree himself but what we have what we can establish for a fact with the bombing is that the ATF and the FBI had a proven methodology of using sting operations utilizing a writer truck and ammonium nitrate explosives before the bombing they were using informants to approach people in the patriot and on in the the white separatist movement not that they're one in the same they're not but in both movements there is was some overlap but they were approaching people with their informants asking them to blow things up with writer trucks and ammonium nitrate explosives this is a proven methodology what we what we what we have gathered and can prove is that there was a sting operation using this methodology and that it may have gone wrong for whatever reason we really don't know why others unknown may have hijacked the operation whether it was some of the neo-nazi informants who decided to turn tables on the feds or perhaps a darker element in the US government who saw this exist existing operation and made it go live we really don't know and we won't know until the release of all the evidence but it appears that Richard Lee Guthrie may have been silenced because he was involved with these sting operations or they thought that he had turned the tables on them I really don't know of course we can't say for sure on many of these points of fact we can only speculate because the relevant documents and the things that would help us to come to a conclusion about what really happened have been either destroyed or suppressed or shoved into the memory hole and unfortunately we here are looking out from the outside into the inner sanctums of the FBI and the other agencies that have been suppressing this information and we can only guess as to what's really going on underneath and there have been people on the inside trying to help out people like Jesse trying to do and he has been leaked numerous documents from the FBI more on which later but one of the things that he has been doing in his tireless ongoing efforts to uncover the truth about the death of his brother is to file countless Freedom of Information Act requests with the FBI for some of the information that they have been suppressing and keeping keeping hidden from the public including much of the surveillance footage of what was happening around the Alfred P Murrah Building on the morning of April 19th 1995 viewers of my recent video on the last word on CCTV will no doubt remember as some of the statements that I made in that video about the footage regarding the Alfred P Murrah Building and it's a subject that we've covered on new world next week at newworldnextweek.com with james evan pilato of mediamonarchy.com when recently i believe it was last year the 26 surveillance tapes were released to jesse turn ado by the FBI of CCTV footage from various buildings around the Alfred P Murrah Building and in that area and every single one of those that would show the approach of the Ryder truck that warning just happened to be being changed at the precise moment that the truck was passing what an incredible coincidence well I that was definitely one of the points that I wanted to clarify in my lengthy and detailed interview with Jesse turn to do so let's turn to an excerpt where we talk about the tapes and also about a pending court case that may even see the actual Alfred P Murrah Building videotapes that would show the bombing itself come to light all right well okay let's move on to another incredibly important part of this case that you've been extremely diligent in getting information out on and one that I've I've talked about before and I think is absolutely central to this case and that's the issue of the surveillance cameras and as people may know you were the one that was responsible for filing a Freedom of Information Act request with the FBI that resulted in the release of 26 I believe surveillance tapes from is from a round of the Alfred P Murrah Building on April 19th 1995 but perhaps you can tell us a little bit more about that case and how it developed well I was leaked a government document that said surveillance cameras show the truck bomb detonating three minutes and six seconds after the suspects exited the vehicle now that's significant for a whole bunch of reasons first they had cameras that actually showed the truck being driven up to the Merrill building park and the people getting out well the FBI says it was only one person in that truck and I was timid a well there's more than one person in that truck and the other person was probably an informant you would think that tape would have been Exhibit one in the McVeigh murder trial no one's ever seen it with the government so I filed a Freedom of Information Act request and I asked for this I said I want the surveillance tapes from the exterior cameras on these buildings leading on the route leading up to the Murrah Building so whichever so the Robin gates at that morning these tapes were shown in that truck and who was in it with him and I said I also want the surveillance tapes from an alpha P Murrah Building to the two cameras on the outside of that building they were clearly shown who was with the bay in that truck well the FBI produces 26 tapes from the other buildings nothing herbally in these tapes at strategic moments go blank and not all at the same time but it's you know the building furthest away goes blank for a few seconds the tape does to take from the next building goes blank a little while afterwards for a few seconds and and so on leading up to the Melbury so that the moment that truck was being driven by these tapes mysteriously go blank and the FBI says well that's because the tapes were being recycled or changed or that I think that was their excuse all 26 tapes were being changed to recycled literally within about three minute period between 858 and 902 on the morning April 19th 1995 but they don't give me the Melbourne tapes and so I go to a court to get the Melbourne capes and there will be hearing in federal court here in Salt Lake City on May 11 2011 over those tapes and the FBI spots has been to the court that we've looked real real hard your honor but by god we can't find those tapes let's stop there to clarify a couple of points you said there were 26 surveillance tapes that you were that were released to you yes and and every single one of those had at least some missing time between the eight 5905 in that period prior to the bomb tapes that would the tapes that would have shown the realm know a lot of more some of them weren't they get me interior shots and stuff like that those would complete the exterior cameras dealing with the route go blank okay so it was it was the one specifically that would have shown the approach of the truck so none of them actually show anything whatsoever if they approaches the truck that's correct and regarding the Murrah Building cameras themselves I have read that they actually we're being stored the the the footage was being stored off-site it wasn't actually taped in cameras on the building but I have no source to back that up I don't have any confirmation of that is that your understanding or is there actually tapes that were secured from the building that day that's more than my understanding I obtained two declarations which is like a NAPA dated used in federal court one was from an Oklahoma City police officer who had been on the I guess it's a special detail that provides security to federal officials who come to Oklahoma and as part of his responsibilities in that job he had been taken through the Merle billing shown the cameras shown in recording systems off-site they were recorded off-site and he was also on scene immediately after the bombing digging through the rubble trying to save people when he said almost at gunpoint the FBI forces them out of the building and he watches the FBI take down the cameras off the building I mean they put it was more important than that seize those cameras than to save victims in the rubble and one important to the FBI and he sat down watched as they took those cameras down and did they let them back in to do their rescue operation the other affidavit ahead was from a man who actually knew the system he what the camera showed was it would take Dexter recording decks were located and they were located two of he blocks away in another federal building that's where the recording stood place so yes those tapes would exist those states were never damaged so even what did you see if the footage is being stored off-site then what is the point of taking the cameras down off the building unless it's to obscure the fact that there were cameras on the building itself it serves clear the fact that were cameras ongoing incredible absolutely incredible but surely no one could think that they would be able to cover that up obviously there would be people who would know about that system and would know about the existence of those cameras well let me ask you this have you seen the photographs of my brother the body yes I have unfortunately it's quite horrific but yes would you think family could cover that up as a so idle hanging it does boggle the imagination to think that anyone would be would be led to believe that and certainly after hearing that the there was two attempts to cremate the body I certainly understand why well they succeeded in covering that up as I said my brother's murder is a suicidal hang part of reason to get away with it is there's no investigative media anymore the First Amendment the press has fallen far short of what the founding fathers perceived its role in our government if you think back to the law he may not be old enough to the Watergate instance when the press was dog and investigated and that press in those days did exactly what the founding fathers thought and that was too long to them to do is is to monitor the government to report on what the government was doing that doesn't happen anymore in fact one of the documents that came out recently that convinced impress honors the FBI has a program of planning moles in the major media outlets informants and it's much like the CIA did years ago when they would plant someone in our government and wait for twenty or thirty years into the rose to a position of power and influence with access to confidential information and an ability to direct policy or government action so that has come out here within the last three weeks that they had moles and these major media outlets and you have to only assume that it was for two purposes one is to obtain information about what for example you know a lot of times the press will write a story about the government and I have a confidential source it's to find out who that source was and also to direct stories or to kill stories that are embarrassing to the government indeed well that will tie in to the reports of CIA's operation Mockingbird and the repeated times in which the the US military has admitted that military psychological operations officers have been staffing various locations including CNN's headquarters so so once again there's there's multiple agencies infested the mainstream media organs and that's certainly one of the reasons why things like your brother's deaths do not get reported on and that brings to mind the question regarding JD cashew you mentioned earlier is he still alive is he still working on this case well JD died about three years ago I see yes I have read some of his reports but I wasn't aware that's the main JD figured this out early on he what I've done I'm stood on the shoulders of a giant JD Kash I mean JD it was a pleasure to work with JD for a few years JD JD figured it out right away that the government had prior knowledge they had informants and he like myself could never reach a conclusion as to whether it was just the sting operation got away from the FBI or whether they actually wanted it to happen because people say why would they want to happen but they always benefit the increased funding you have the Patriot Act and all the other surveillance and you merican people lose the number of their rights whenever one of these accidents happen and we seem willing to give up those rights for what we think will be security to the future absolutely and that's unfortunately very true and and again that was very much the case with the OKC bombing and there is speculation of the files that were contained in the FBI offices in the building there's speculation about a number of things related to the case and why the building itself was blown up so quickly afterwards and all sorts of very unusual circumstances around the bombing itself but but getting back I think we got a little bit off track from the question of the videotapes and that brings two brings up a report that was just released on April 10 Oklahoma City bombing videotapes subject of federal court hearing in Salt Lake City May 11th and this talks about a hearing that's going to take place with judge Clark what Oaks presiding in the US law what UPS presiding in the US District Court for the District of Utah Central Division and it comes some three and a half years after Utah attorney Jesse Turner do you used FOIA to request the FBI to turn over copies or surveillance video captured April 19 1995 s etc cetera perhaps you can tell us about this this hearing and what it's going to decide the hearings is over the Maryland tapes it's a very significant case for a number of reasons obviously the tapes I mean if I can access to the tapes need to go public it's it will show who carry out the attack on the Murrah Building and who else was involved but more important than that it goes to the core of what is the government's responsibility under the Freedom of Information Act or for you the FBI's position and it's the position they assert all over this country that when someone asks for a document or a record it is potentially harmful to the bureau the response is we looked for it and we can't find it their position is all the law requires is for them to look it does not require them to find and produce a record and why this is significant in this case is the tapes exists so it's not a case where they can say we don't know if there is a record or not in this case there is there are tapes the second reason it's significant is in other instances they've been able to assert a privilege print production national security an ongoing criminal investigation there's a number of exemptions under FOIA that says you can't get records if they fall into these these documents that are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act they don't have that claim here so we had the documents in existence we don't have any privilege to protect them the documents being the tapes or the records no privilege that protects them and the issue comes down to is that all the law requires is that the FBI look and report back to a judge that we can't find anything in my position is that can't be the law because the purpose of refrigerant Information Act was to give public access to what the government was doing and this would defeat it would eviscerate for you if all they had to do is say we looked in week not we can't find anything so my position is once you know it exists and there's no privilege you sure as hell have to find it and turn it over so I assume that currently they're they're trying to hold that they're not even obligated to talk about what that search involved or what types of Records or in what way they were they were searching oh they said they did a computer search and they just can't find it well I've seen in the past and one of the documents I filed in support of my motion was from a retired FBI agent and said in the Oklahoma bombing case they had what we call zero files and this was evidence no one was to see it goes into the zero file I also found out in the course of my FOIA request and this isn't it become rather significant publicly happened across what the FBI calls I drives in a FOIA response or request and in a criminal case the FBI turns over the in the FOIA case they would request they would search the official file for documents it's the official file they turn over to the defense counsel and the criminal case Lehi drive is where evidence goes before it goes into the official file and then the FBI makes a determination whether to put it in the official file or leave it in the I Drive where it's never recorded never reporting and of course they tell me only irrelevant evidence remains in the I Drive all relevant evidence goes to the official file was turned over to defense counsel and made available to the public on the FOIA request well I don't for a moment believe them on that I think what goes into the I drive is the evidence that would acquit somebody or that's embarrassing to the government absolutely well I hate to be defeatist about this but given the way that in vital information and documentation about your brother's deaths has been systematically erased and destroyed could you imagine that the the incriminating videotape would ever actually be turned over by the FBI then will never be turned over can you imagine what it would do it would go right to the highest levels of government from 1995 and go right into the White House that level of cover-up line level and I'm not completely motivated person I'd I could care less about either party but it would be devastating if you look now the very people who were involved in keeping lid on the Oklahoma City bombing or back in power you know Eric Holder was the second command under Janet Reno in fact Holder led the cover-up of my brother's murder there's a whole bunch of emails back and forth where they referred to it as the Trinity mission they liken it to coordinating the invasion enormity to keep any investigations from going forward I mean it literally it's named a Trinity mission and they refer to into this trina– do's and treinta don'ts meaning things to do and things not to do in keeping the lids on this and this is he was then Deputy Attorney General Eric hope was heading run up you have to ask yourself why would the Deputy Attorney General United States of America be involved in the death of an inmate one reason now is simple because that death goes right into the Oklahoma City bombing which goes right back to the highest levels of the executive branch there are so many points to go over in this case and there are so many points that were even covered in that one at plus our conversation with Jesse trying to do that the simple one hour podcast could not hope to really get into all of those details but I think the issue of the surveillance tapes is one of the key issues because there is absolutely no doubt that if the FBI had the surveillance tape of the truck being driven by Timothy McVeigh acting alone it would have been presented at the trial in fact it would have been given to the media to broadcast on every station worldwide day after day after day the point is that is not what the tapes show according to the witnesses who have seen the tapes and who have said that it showed a John Doe number two getting out of the truck minutes after McVeigh did so unfortunately we will have to conclude with Jesse trying to do that it would be almost unseen Abell that the FBI would ever allow that tape to surface but still the fight is what's important and fighting to expose the fact that this tape is being hidden can be at least almost as valuable as actually seeing the tape itself because if we can push this incredibly important aspect of the case into the mainstream then more people will become aware that they are not being told the truth about the Oklahoma City bombing ultimately today's episode is about the quest of a family to try to get the information about how when why and under what circumstances their family member was killed and unfortunately it is a gruesome tale but it is one that it absolutely needs to be told because like so many of these other cases of someone being suicided the powers that be would not like you to know about this and they have gone to great lengths to cover up or to attempt to cover up or sweep under the rug the information that Jesse trying to do and others have been working tirelessly for years to try to bring to the public's attention and it's quite true that the media will not tell these stories because the media has a vested interest in not telling the stories it is up to people like you and me to try to get the word out ourselves because the media is not going to do it for us ultimately this is a quest for truth and justice in a world where there is far too little of either and to whatever extent that this may be a quixotic bayat battle it is one that still needs to be fought while we still have some modicum of freedom I'll leave the last word in today's episode – Jesse turned to do as he explains what it is that motivates him and his quest for the truth about his brother's death my family will never get justice remember research that'll never happen the government will never prosecute anybody because it runs the risk of the minuted prosecute somebody the whole story ugly story corruption but what I can do in this there's no noble I mean I didn't I didn't start out to solve the Oklahoma City bombing I started out to find out what happened to my brother and every lead took me to the bomb and go back on the point of justice of why I do this I do it for no other reason than to I guess embarrass together is the only justice will get is to humiliate it expose the federal government for the corrupt entity that it apparently has become especially the FBI there's nothing Noble than that thing I don't want your audience to think that there's anything noble and me I was a hillbilly if people know southern mountain people with your culture is when you kill one of us you better kill us all back to third cousins because it's inner layer if you leave what I'm us alive we're going to get you and I'll get them I'll never get justice but I sure as hell hurt them I'll hurt their reputations I'll hurt your image and I like to think I've done that now and at least is some indication I've done it they some of them when I deal with the federal government it's never the local US Attorney's anymore and it brought out the US Attorney's I deal with the bride of a main justice of Washington DC and as a humorous aside one they referred to me as Jessie Ben lund and I said I didn't think that was fair because I said there's no way that sumbitch hates you more ninety [Music] you
1 Comment
u cannot embarass tjhe government .. truism